75 replies to this topic

[Wyvern]

Let's not get into what's right and wrong.

Unless someone wants to create an abortion topic under SD.

The problem with banning abortion is that it does tend to have a somewhat negative effect on the mother, physiologically and psychologically. But more importantly, banning abortion effectively takes a woman's right to bodily autonomy away from her, which is not solid ground morally.

[Ezio]

You should make a more offical first post so that more people can get in with the discussion.

Though I do agree that a person needs to have the freedom of choice. While I personally am against abortion, I wouldn't force my beliefs on anyone else.

[Wyvern]

not really..... confronting people with a wall-o-text in the OP seems to discourage a lot of people here. Text wall can come later.

[Ezio]

That's only because we all seem to be pressed for time these days. But I see your point.

[Slasher]

not really..... confronting people with a wall-o-text in the OP seems to discourage a lot of people here. Text wall can come later.

This is true. I often avoid text walls. Maybe skim the first and last paragraph, unless I'm feeling exceptionally lazy, then I'll only skim the first and last sentences. So unless I'm directly arguing with someone, I won't bother to read anybody's text walls, even in an OP.


Anyways...
I'm more neutral on abortion. I don't exactly agree with it as it's taking a life away, however I do feel that it's the parent's choice.

Here are some circumstances I feel it's right or wrong to do it with:
For abortion when...
-Rape is involved.
-The child will be known to have deformities/handicaps/mentally disabled.
-The child will be born into an abusive family.

Against abortion when...
-It's a normal pregnancy. For obvious reasons.
-It's a teen pregnancy. The teen was stupid enough to do it, they have to take responsibility.
-The child will be born into poverty (which I've heard as an excuse under the "For it" portion before.). It may cause trouble in the family for awhile, but they should be able to work it out. A life is more important.

That's all I can think of right now off the top of my head.

[Ezio]

You really think a child should be denied the chance to life just because it's born into an abusive family? Wouldn't it be better to be born and taken out of the abuse for a chance to live?

The only reason I can see that stands would be known to be born with a disability. And even then, it would really have to depend on what the disability is going to be. Most can live a decent life with something such as being blind.

Rape I don't see as a reason because the parent could just give the child up to a family that would love it. There are so many people that want kids that can't have them no matter how hard they try. There is a high demand for babies in adoption centers. So the child shouldn't have to die because it was a result of a rape.

[Moonlight_Zelda]

Here are some circumstances I feel it's right or wrong to do it with:
For abortion when...
-Rape is involved.
-The child will be known to have deformities/handicaps/mentally disabled.
-The child will be born into an abusive family.
-When it endangers both the carrying mother and the child.

Against abortion when...
-It's a normal pregnancy. For obvious reasons.
-It's a teen pregnancy. The teen was stupid enough to do it, they have to take responsibility.
-The child will be born into poverty (which I've heard as an excuse under the "For it" portion before.). It may cause trouble in the family for awhile, but they should be able to work it out. A life is more important.

That's all I can think of right now off the top of my head.

Well, I added my two cents worth to Slasher's post in the italic bullet. He phrased it more or less perfectly.

[Slasher]

You really think a child should be denied the chance to life just because it's born into an abusive family? Wouldn't it be better to be born and taken out of the abuse for a chance to live?

The only reason I can see that stands would be known to be born with a disability. And even then, it would really have to depend on what the disability is going to be. Most can live a decent life with something such as being blind.

Rape I don't see as a reason because the parent could just give the child up to a family that would love it. There are so many people that want kids that can't have them no matter how hard they try. There is a high demand for babies in adoption centers. So the child shouldn't have to die because it was a result of a rape.

Do you really think a child should have to suffer through abuse for several years before anybody does anything about it? A child raised in an abusive family would be psychologically traumatized. They wouldn't let people know of their abuse for fear of being killed. And even if they get lucky enough to get out of it, they wouldn't be able to live normal lives due to such experiences.

Well of course it would depend on the disability. If they would be able to live normal lives, then that's fine. But if it's gonna be something severe that the child would have too much trouble struggling with for their entire lives and be completely miserable, then there's no reason to allow them to live like that and making them suffer such tragedies.

Would you really want to give birth to a child that has the genes of the person who raped you? For one thing, the rape would be traumatizing enough for the mother, but having to give birth to the child of the rapist, that would probably make the mother mentally unstable. That would just be too harsh.

Edit: Thanks Moon. I knew I was missing something important like that.

Edited by Slasher, 16 November 2010 - 03:28 PM.

[Ezio]

Well I know what it's like to be abused, and I am glad that my mother didn't have an abortion to get rid of me like she did to the babies before and after me. I haven't had an easy life at all, but I'm still extremely happy to be alive. Should I have had to go through that? Well no, but my experience did make me who I am today. Same goes for David Pezzler who wrote the book "A Child called It" Because of the extreme abuse he went through, he's not able to help thousands of children who have gone through it as well.

I mean since it's up to the mother, there is no way to regulate such a thing anyways. And if the pregnat person was to be before the court about the issue, for me personally I don't think the court should have the right to force abortion on a person. They can take away the child once it's born, but to say that a person has to get rid of the unborn child would be totally a violation of the persons freedom of choice and the right of the womans own body.

And as I stated in my first post in the thread, I wouldn't force my beliefs on anyone. I do understand that being raped is a bad ordeal to go through. I know for myself I wouldn't abort for any reason at all, but that's because doing so would put me in violation of Gods law and I could not live with doing such a thing. This is why I have always felt strongly about pro-choice. I wouldn't fight for it, but I do feel that a woman should be able to do what she feels is right in such situations.

[Slasher]

Well I know what it's like to be abused, and I am glad that my mother didn't have an abortion to get rid of me like she did to the babies before and after me. I haven't had an easy life at all, but I'm still extremely happy to be alive. Should I have had to go through that? Well no, but my experience did make me who I am today. Same goes for David Pezzler who wrote the book "A Child called It" Because of the extreme abuse he went through, he's not able to help thousands of children who have gone through it as well.

I mean since it's up to the mother, there is no way to regulate such a thing anyways. And if the pregnat person was to be before the court about the issue, for me personally I don't think the court should have the right to force abortion on a person. They can take away the child once it's born, but to say that a person has to get rid of the unborn child would be totally a violation of the persons freedom of choice and the right of the womans own body.

And as I stated in my first post in the thread, I wouldn't force my beliefs on anyone. I do understand that being raped is a bad ordeal to go through. I know for myself I wouldn't abort for any reason at all, but that's because doing so would put me in violation of Gods law and I could not live with doing such a thing. This is why I have always felt strongly about pro-choice. I wouldn't fight for it, but I do feel that a woman should be able to do what she feels is right in such situations.

So you're satisfied with most of your childhood being taken away by abuse which most likely still has long term effects on you?
Not that I'm trying to start anything. I just don't think it's right that anybody has to suffer through any of that.

And I was never talking about regulating such things. I was only stating my opinions on the matter of what I agree with or disagree about it.
This is more about whether you're for abortion or not. And as I stated, I'm in-between.
However, there are issues such as people trying to ban abortion. If you care for such rights as for the parents to choose in the situation, then banning abortion would be violating those rights as well.

And as the last part goes into your beliefs, I won't touch it. Since I'm me.

Edited by Slasher, 16 November 2010 - 03:52 PM.

[Ezio]

Yeah I can say I'm satisfied because I had no choice, I can't change what happened, and dwelling about it with a woe is me attitude isn't going to help me any. Of coures there are lasting effects, but I that doesn't mean I'm not happy to be alive. I'm not going to look to my past and cry over it.

Though a child who is going through it at the time would feel better off if they were dead, (which I felt many times when I was younger) doesn't mean it won't end. It's really a hard call. No one should have to go through it, but for those of us who had no choice we are still alive. Some get messed up beyond compare, but others like myself move forward and try to live the best we can.

I know I would never ever put anyone through what I went through. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone either, but we can't all be born into great families.

[Razor Bern]

Honestly my view on abortion is pretty simple, I'm pro-choice. Frankly, I think if a woman's conscience allows it, no matter the reason, I think she should have the right to do whatever she sees fit. Also, because I am male, I will never understand what a woman goes through when she's pregnant and I wouldn't presume to ever know.

Whatever your religious belief, and what a woman decides to do, you'll have to answer to whatever higher power it is that you believe in later.

[Keatos]

It is a sad situation that I would hope no one should feel the need to go through, but a woman should have choice of what goes on inside her body. It's hers, after all. I couldn't imagine if there was a law about what I could or could not do with my own body.

Also banning abortion just leads to more unsafe back-ally abortions which put both the fetus and mother at risk. So~

[Nathan]

For abortion when...

-The child will be born into an abusive family.

I found this specifically shocking. Kill life because it might be born into an abusive family? Killing a baby is the worst abuse any life could go through. Adoption would be better.

But seriously. Life should be the most valued thing on this planet. Without it, well duh, we wouldn't be here.

Abortion is killing. Abortion is murder. The baby has no say in the decision, sure, it's the mother's child, but if my Mom killed me now, she'd be thrown in jail. What's the difference? I'm older? I'm mature? I can think? The baby will be able to think as soon as it's given time to develop.

Also, what about Adoption? Why kill a life? There's other means if one is unable to care for the baby.

Now, disabilities is where I struggle. Unfortunately those born with disabilities get a lot of crap from the senseless jerks in this world, not the mention of feeling like an outcast and possibly not being able to do things other people do every day. However, there are several people with disabilities that live joyful lives, so I think I'd still be against abortion in this case.

When it comes to it, abortion is really unnecessary. I am strongly against it when teenagers that were stupid enough to have a kid, want to rid of it. I mean, because of them that the child is born, the child shouldn't have to suffer because of their stupidity. Now I'm against pre-marital sex, but a majority of society isn't. Instead of being judgmental, I'll say this: if you're going to have sex, at least be prepared just in case of an accident, because accidents happen.

Anyways, I hope I got my opinion across clearly. I'm tired, and I need to go to bed. And Slasher, this post isn't directed at you, just the first paragraph. XD

[Ezio]

It is a sad situation that I would hope no one should feel the need to go through, but a woman should have choice of what goes on inside her body. It's hers, after all. I couldn't imagine if there was a law about what I could or could not do with my own body.

Also banning abortion just leads to more unsafe back-ally abortions which put both the fetus and mother at risk. So~

Well I know back in the 60's, it was illegal here where I live. In fact there is a very interesting fiction book about a case called A case of Need. If you're a reader you should totally read the book. It's intense!

[Slasher]

I found this specifically shocking. Kill life because it might be born into an abusive family? Killing a baby is the worst abuse any life could go through. Adoption would be better.

Anyways, I hope I got my opinion across clearly. I'm tired, and I need to go to bed. And Slasher, this post isn't directed at you, just the first paragraph. XD

Alright, then I'll answer the first paragraph.
My views of abuse must be a bit different then. When I say abuse, I mean like on the line between life and death due to it. Like starving the child as if they were in the Holocaust, treating them like a slave. Pretty much holding open the doorway to death if the child angers the parents in some way.
With that out of the way. There is adoption. But not everybody would do that. If the child were to be put into adoption right away, I'd have no problem with it. But I'm only talking about in the instance that the family doesn't bother to put them into adoption.

[Razor Bern]

My views of abuse must be a bit different then. When I say abuse, I mean like on the line between life and death due to it. Like starving the child as if they were in the Holocaust, treating them like a slave. Pretty much holding open the doorway to death if the child angers the parents in some way.

Those are going to be fairly rare cases though. I see what you're getting at, but really if I child is in danger of having that happen after birth, would the Nazis, for example, go to that much trouble to abort the child? Or would the parents have the wherewithal to get an abortion?

[Wyvern]

-The child will be born into poverty (which I've heard as an excuse under the "For it" portion before.). It may cause trouble in the family for awhile, but they should be able to work it out. A life is more important.

Just to let you know, this reads as "Abortions are fine, but only for rich people."

I am rather alarmed at the frequency of the callous "but not teen mothers, they were stupid it's their fault" comments. Teen mothers are the ones in most dire need - they are the ones who are most likely to leave school, and they have limited access to adequate medical care, resulting often in serious complications for both the mother and baby. Contraception fails, that is irrefutable. So there must be available options when that falls through.

And no, adoption is not an adequate alternative. For one, mothers are mostly unwilling to give up a baby they gave birth to - only about 1% relinquish their children for adoption. (for contrast, the abortion rate is about 22%) Secondly, it puts the mental health of the birth mother in serious jeopardy. Not only is there great potential for long-term anguish, but also incidence of postpartum depression. This is in addition to the relatively high risk of complications that are attached to all pregnancies.

No, it's not murder. While both are human life, the difference between you and an embryo is that you are a person and it is not. You are a living person with sentience, identity, and personality. It is a blob of cells that happen to have human DNA. As the fetus gets older, the lines between this distinction get very blurry. Which makes it a good thing that more than 85% of abortions take place during the first 12 weeks - which is when the brain really starts to develop and organs are starting to function for the first time.

But your stance on that last bit is probably not going to falter so easily. And if so, I assume that you are also completely against stem cell research and in-vitro fertilization, which is a shame.

[Slasher]

It seems the majority of people are attacking the things I've said. I'm a stubborn person though.

Those are going to be fairly rare cases though. I see what you're getting at, but really if I child is in danger of having that happen after birth, would the Nazis, for example, go to that much trouble to abort the child? Or would the parents have the wherewithal to get an abortion?

Are those cases really all that rare?
I don't really get that second part though. If by "Nazis" you're referring to the abusers, then that only strengthens my case. They wouldn't go through the trouble of abortion, thus those instances would be likely to happen.

I don't want to argue my point on this part any more though. Mainly because I don't want to be repeating the same thing over and over just with different wording. I'm sticking to it.

Just to let you know, this reads as "Abortions are fine, but only for rich people."
First of all, taking things out of context doesn't work on me like it might for others. You do this a lot. Second of all, if you don't understand what I meant with what I said, then what you're basically saying is that people should get an abortion when in poverty just because they can't afford a child.

I am rather alarmed at the frequency of the callous "but not teen mothers, they were stupid it's their fault" comments. Teen mothers are the ones in most dire need - they are the ones who are most likely to leave school, and they have limited access to adequate medical care, resulting often in serious complications for both the mother and baby. Contraception fails, that is irrefutable. So there must be available options when that falls through.
Teen mothers do not have to drop out. They can find people to take care of their child such as other family members. Teens just often use it as an excuse to drop out. Also, their parents should be able to cover the medical care, it's as simple as that.

Just wanted to comment on at least those parts, with the bold-italics.

[Lugia Dragonite Guy]

Until it's out of the woman's body, it's a parasite sucking nutrients and causing a sickness. So yes, I'm for the choice of abortion. Some people would say "well cases with rape are why," but rape is only the reason for 1% of abortions (had to do something about it in class, I remember stuffs). So let's not concentrate on that. If you're fine with those abortions, cool, but that's not the majority. (Not that it should be ignored, just saying).